If you are serious about pushing boundaries and transforming health and wellness, HLTH is the place to be. The 2023 edition of HLTH, held earlier this month in Las Vegas, united more than 10,000 senior executives, decision-makers, and innovators across the healthcare spectrum whose common goal is to discuss the trends and strategies needed to create health’s future and move them forward. This year, Nemours Children’s Health convened HLTH’s first-ever track focused on creating the healthiest generations of children.
It’s a goal near and dear to the heart of Nemours’ president and CEO, Dr. Larry Moss, who joined us in our HLTH podcast booth in Las Vegas as we sat down for a conversation with Alex Azar, the 24th Secretary of the U. S. Department of Health and Human Services, who served in that post from January 2018 to January 2021.
TRANSCRIPT
Music
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Welcome to Well Beyond Medicine, the Nemours Children’s Health Podcast. Each week we’ll explore anything and everything related to the 80% of child health impacts that occur outside the doctor’s office. I’m your host, Carol Vassar, and now that you are here, let’s go.
Music:
Well Beyond Medicine
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
If you’re serious about pushing boundaries and transforming health and wellness, HLTH, spelled H-L-T-H, is the place to be. The 2023 edition of HLTH held earlier this month in Las Vegas, united more than 10,000 senior executives, decision-makers and innovators from across the healthcare spectrum, whose common goal is to discuss the trends and strategies needed to create HLTH’s future and move them forward. This year, Nemours Children’s Health convened HLTH’s first-ever track focused on creating the healthiest generations of children. It’s a goal near and dear to the heart of Nemours President and CEO Dr. Larry Moss, who joined us in our HLTH podcast booth in Las Vegas as we sat down with Alex Azar, the 24th secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services, who served in that post from January 2018 to January 2021.
Secretary Azar, this is the first time at HLTH that there has been a track focused on the health of children. What excites you about the impact of focusing on child health and the potential to achieve improvements across the lifespan?
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services
I think it’s really very important, especially at a setting like HLTH 2023, which brings together so many of the key players across the entire healthcare spectrum, that we have a track focused on children’s health because I’ll be honest with you because of the dominance of Medicare and our healthcare system and just how much the Medicare fee structure drives the overall healthcare system in America, I think children’s issues get neglected too much. I don’t think we, at the national level or in the healthcare policy world, focus enough on the unique circumstances of children, how we pay for care, how we deliver care, how we deliver therapies. I mean, we know that as a former drug company executive, we know how hard it is to get the focus there on developing therapies that are really exclusively for pediatrics. So I think anything that any setting like this does, that calls to all of our minds leaders in healthcare, the need to think differently about children and be focused there across that spectrum is vitally important.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Dr. Moss, what do you see as some of the most promising breakthroughs in healthcare impacting children and families over the past few years?
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
So thank you for having me, Carol. And Secretary Azar, very nice to be here with you. Appreciate you asking, and I appreciate the secretary calling out not only the importance but the distinctness or the uniqueness of child health issues. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to talk about what I’d like to talk about all the time, which is my three-step prescription for fixing healthcare, which I think is actually quite simple, and I like to articulate that as understand what health is, pay for health, start with children. And if I could unpack that a little bit, I think that plays into the answer to your question, ideally.
With respect to understanding what health is, we’ve known for decades that medical care is important but a small part of health. It counts for maybe 20% or so by most estimates. So 80% of health is all those other things: safe housing, food security, freedom from violence, avoidance of adverse childhood experiences. And I think it’s a huge breakthrough that those things are now on the table and in the healthcare debate. And I have to give Secretary Azar and his administration a ton of credit for really being pioneers in putting those things on the table. And that’s continued with the current administration. It’s allowed those of us who care about children to go down avenues that we’ve always wanted to go down.
With respect to pay for health, I’m also very excited to see, albeit a little slower than I might like, some significant moves in the way we pay for health. And the things that I think are most significant, which frankly also started in Secretary Azar’s administration, is the use of funds that would previously be allocated only to medical care, to things like mold abatement and housing, and things that actually have a big impact on health. And that, in my mind, is a huge breakthrough.
And with respect to starting with children, I think that’s where the opportunity is. And I like people to remember that, of the four plus trillion dollars we spend on healthcare, only 7% of that spend is on children. So we can make some pretty aggressive bets on kids without upsetting the aircraft carrier. And I’d like to see us do more of that.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
I’d like to follow up on the payment consideration. Secretary Azar, you’ve been a proponent of value-based care throughout your time as secretary and beyond. Tell our audience what value-based care really is.
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
So we, in healthcare and healthcare policy, talk about value-based care, and I think that can be very mysterious to those who don’t live and eat and breathe healthcare and healthcare policy. Let me phrase it by what it is not. Traditionally, since the 1960s, at least, the way we pay for healthcare in the United States is by procedure. I see a doctor, the doctor gets paid for seeing me. I get stuck with a needle. The doctor gets paid for sticking me with a needle. I get an X-ray, the radiologist gets paid for doing the X-ray. That’s what we call paying for procedures.
So what happens if you get paid by procedure? You get more money if you do what? You do more procedures. What’s not in that equation is any aspect of the value created or the health outcome that comes from that. You get paid no matter what happens. You get paid no matter how many tests you deliver. How many of us have seen our primary care doctor, had our blood drawn, had our BP blood pressure taken, had all these other diagnostics done, gone to a specialist, and had exactly the same thing done a couple days later? Why? Because each person is getting paid for that procedure. It’s not about what’s the result and does it matter.
Value-based care is about how do we change our payment systems in the United States to instead of paying for procedures, start paying for the outcome, paying for the health outcome. Now, there are different ways one can think of that. We can pay for, say, a concrete outcome, so a bonus payment to physicians or hospitals if they’re able to work with patients to drive down their HbA1c levels, of course, the key marker for diabetes. That is one outcome we can pay for. We can pay for safety. We can pay for meeting certain safety metrics. That’s a form of paying for outcomes.
I’d say, for me, the end outcome of where all of these baby steps of paying for different types of outcomes that we’ve been trying to do really since my boss and predecessor Secretary Mike Levitt got us started on this journey in 2005 of moving to value-based care, the, I guess, apotheosis be the right word, the ultimate fulfillment of this is when we start paying providers, here’s an amount of money, take care of the person. And upside, downside, work with the patient to take care of them. And we totally get out of the business of micromanaging the practice of medicine, micromanaging this outcome, that outcome, but rather get the physicians, the systems, the patients working together to have better outcomes and lower costs. That’s what we call a total cost of care. And I think we’ll talk a bit more about that later. This holistic approach to how we deliver care, which, I believe, is the future of healthcare.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Dr. Moss, explain how this all applies to children. What is whole child health?
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
The best, most immediate answer I can give is what he just said. That was fantastic. That was a great articulation of what I believe is the fundamental problem in American healthcare is we incentivize the opposite of what we want. We want health, and we incentivize volume, and we get exactly what we’re paying for. But by any measure of number of MRIs or CT scans, number of elective operations, any health measure you want to pick, we do, in this country, way more than our peer nations, and our health indices are worse because we’re paying to do things not paying to keep people healthy. So couldn’t agree more with what the secretary said.
So, whole child health is exactly what the words say; it’s about the health of the whole child and health with a capital H. So, not their medical journey but their overall status. So measures would be things like, what’s the rate of kindergarten readiness in your population? What’s the high school graduation rate? What’s the incidence of ACEs, or adverse childhood experiences, which profoundly predict long-term adult outcomes for many decades to come?
Nemours is all about that. I like to say that Nemours is in the business of creating health, not in the business of delivering medical care. So, creating health includes delivering medical care, and we do a whole lot of that, but that’s not enough. It’s not nearly enough. We have to pick up on the value conversation. We have created something at Nemours, which we call the value-based service organization. We’ve invested about $100 million over the last five years. And what’s involved there is intense care coordination, which is helping patients navigate a complicated health journey, but then also population management coordination. We have a whole staff of folks whose patient isn’t the individual; their patient is society or the community that we’re responsible for. And that’s a completely different perspective, requires different data, different analytics, and we’ve invested in all that.
Right now, that’s a cost that comes right out of our bottom line. If we transform to a system like Secretary Azar describes, and I fully support, where we get paid for creating health, we’ll do wonderfully in a system like that because kids will be out of the hospital, and that’s what we should all want. Right now, Nemours and every other health system in the country makes more money when there’s more people in the hospital. That’s not what we actually want.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Let’s continue this value conversation. You alluded to this, Secretary Azar. We have seen incentives in Medicare and for the adult population to transition to value-based care. How will these lessons carry forward to invest in children?
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
Yeah. As we think about value-based care, and especially for children, one of the nice things about moving to value-based care is it can help us get outside of the Pennywise pound foolish box that we’re in healthcare. And Dr. Moss referred to placing a bet on children earlier. Let me explain what I mean here. If you’re in this procedure-based system I described before, if you pay for something, what happens in economic terms? You get more of it. Okay? What you pay for, you get. So what do we do if we are paying for lots of diagnostic tests? If we pay for diagnostic tests, we get more diagnostic tests, so we start regulating how many diagnostic tests.
We say, if you’re a senior citizen, I’ll go the opposite direction of the children’s issue, but the easiest example for me, you’re a senior citizen, you’re living in the home. If we only put a ramp in at your house so that you could safely get in and out of your house if you had a home health aide worker come to help feed you, let you go to the bathroom, if we got food delivered to you, all of those things could keep you from needing to go into a very expensive skilled nursing facility. Historically, we don’t pay for that. Why do we not? Because we pay for procedures. So if we add something else we pay for, we will get more of it. And so the fear of everyone in healthcare and healthcare financing is if we pay to put a ramp in, we’ll just get a lot of ramps. I mean, that’s what happened with the electronic wheelchairs. The scooter movement was pay for those in Medicare to get a lot of scooters out there. So you then have to regulate. It’s called the law of the second best. You regulate that utilization.
What happens instead if you pay for value if you pay to keep the child out of the hospital, except when absolutely necessary? If you’re paying for the overall outcome, then the provider who’s getting that money, we would call that total cost of care. So, let’s say we pay a provider $10,000 a year for the total cost of care of a child. That provider can make money by delivering that care at a lower cost, higher quality way or lose money if it’s higher cost. So what that does is it gets us out of this micromanaging business. So having that child in a safe home, having that child in a home that doesn’t have lead pipes, having that child in a home that hasn’t… For most Americans, we don’t think of this, but as HHS secretary, I had to deal with it. We have people who do not have safe drinking water and safe sewage in America.
Those things, dealing with those things, which we can’t pay for with healthcare insurance, traditionally, if we do this value-based, paying a provider an amount of money, that provider can place bets and say, “I’m going to bet on this intervention” is going to save healthcare costs. It’s going to keep the child of the hospital; it’s going to make the child healthy. And for us, of course, it’s not just a short-term gain of that type of investment. With kids, it’s a lifetime return on investment when you do that with kids as compared to, say, a 75-year-old. So, it’s an even better value proposition. This is what we call social determinants of health, these things that we don’t pay for but drive actual health outcomes more than taking a drug or even seeing a doctor, some of these safe environments, safe food, all of those things. And for kids, it’s just more than any other. I think the interventions on social determinants of health would be greater than for any other part of our age continuum.
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
I’d like to build on that. I agree with everything the secretary said. And then it comes back to why children, and I want to build on some of the closing comments that he made, which is that’s the time when the cost of interventions is astoundingly small compared to adults, and the return is absolutely massive. There’s some really interesting work done by Nobel Prize-winning economist James Heckman, where he took two groups of preschoolers, and in one of them, he did really basic education on health behaviors, primary care, and a healthy snack once a day. That’s a whole intervention. And then, decades later, because you follow these people for decades, this group had markedly lower incidences of diabetes, markedly lower incidences of hypertension, one-half the rate of obesity, higher high school graduation rate, and almost a twofold increase in median annual income. And the total cost of the intervention was 900 bucks a kid.
So the return we get in adults is great. You can add a zero sometimes add two zeros in kids. That’s where I would argue the opportunity is. So if we’re going to place a bet, that’s where we should place it.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
The longevity of that $900 investment is just absolutely amazing.
Secretary Azar, I want to follow up. What policy incentives or supports in Medicaid do you believe would help state payers, and pediatric providers test more value-based care approaches that address social determinants of health and support that whole child health that we’re talking about here, including mental health?
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
Yeah, so it would be making the types of moves and Medicaid that we’ve done in Medicare. Now, it’s a bit different because, for so many people in America who are on Medicaid, that program is really administered by what we call managed Medicaid companies. So health insurance companies, household names that really run it like an insurance benefit that we would have, often for children though, that is still run by the states directly in what we would call the traditional fee for service where state bureaucracy is running that, they could be adopting the same types of value-based total cost of care payment systems that I moved the federal government to in Medicare. They could be doing that in Medicaid. And you get into that whole holistic way of delivering care.
Let me give you an example from the adult context on a board that I’m on. It’s called absolute care. And what we do is we actually contract with managed Medicaid organizations, and we run brick-and-mortar clinics in cities, and we will take the risk for a tranche of their patients, some of the most common users of emergency rooms, say, for just regular primary care. And we’ll take on risk to care for them in these clinics with the mission of delivering quality care, but keep them out of the hospital except when necessary, but have the… I hate always to approach things as an economist, but what I always said to people both in academia, in the corporate world, and in government is healthcare goods are economic goods.
And no matter what you think about healthcare, as a moral right, whatever else, if you fail to respect that healthcare goods are economic goods and obey economic laws, you’ll be sadly surprised and mistaken in the outcomes. You have to respect that fact. So financial incentives do matter if you incentivize holistic care of a Medicaid beneficiary, as I think we have these programs through managed Medicaid that I’m involved in. We do things like invest in housing and transportation and preventive care in getting people on drugs, keeping them on their medicines. That type of thing works. It really does. And so for kids, state Medicaid programs ought to be driving towards the same holistic total cost of care solutions for children, as should our SCHIP programs and others.
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
Agree. And I’ll get a little bit policy wonky for just a second before I come back to earth, which is it’s important for people to understand Medicare is a federal program, Medicaid is 50 different state programs. And there’s some advantages there, yes, for the states. However, there’s some disadvantages as well in that there’s not as much opportunity for national leadership to fix a national problem. And the way we approach children’s healthcare in the country today is a national problem. And I hate to see it when creative states are constrained by if either federal mandates, federal legislation, federal laws, and I think that’s an area we can all give some thought to. Again, 7% of the spend is not that much. There’s a big return. We got to make some big, bold bets, not little stepwise, incremental progress.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
I’m going to change the subject ever so slightly. You have both been proponents of digital health and have highlighted the importance of telehealth as a durable part of the healthcare system. Dr. Moss, this question is for you. Can you speak to how Nemours has leveraged telehealth for both medical and behavioral health to improve access to care for children and youth?
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
Well, I’ll tell you what we’ve done, and then I’ll make a comment. Nemours was the first children’s system in the country to adopt the electronic medical records. So we have a huge wealth of data, and we went big and early into telehealth, and it served us unbelievably well during the pandemic. We didn’t know the pandemic was coming, but it sure served us well when it did happen.
My comment about digital health from the standpoint of our patients who are kids, the digital world is not some alternative world. It is their world. So we’re thinking we’re doing something bold and creative, and they’re thinking, how do you ever get a stupid idea driving to the doctor’s office in the first place? And so we think it’s really important to make it as native to the way we deliver healthcare as possible. There’s a term that I like a lot. We didn’t coin it, but I like it, which is healthcare at any address is that if people are a Nemours’ patient, it shouldn’t matter what state, what county, whether it’s on the phone, whether it’s on their laptop, whatever it is, it should be just provision of care. And that’s hard for people our age to think about, but our patients think it’s normal.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Secretary Azar, what more do you think federal, state, and local policymakers can do to help realize the opportunity of digital health platforms to reduce racial disparities?
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
One of the very few, very few things that was positive about our COVID experiences was our use of emergency authorities that really let us unleash telemedicine for the first time. So you say to yourself, every other part of the American economy functions virtually, telemedicine keeps up-to-date, high-tech adoption, everything else, whether it’s Amazon shopping or even grocery shopping, but healthcare is frozen in the 1960s. Why? Because our payment system was created in the 1960s, and our payment system pays for procedures. It’s all back to what we talked about before. And so if you pay for procedures, if a doctor says, “Well, if I’m going to have a telephone interaction, I’d like to get paid for that.” If you’re worried about spending, you say, “No, you can’t get paid for that because that will balloon expenditures.” And so it freezes things. All those, it’s that Pennywise pound foolish phrase I used before.
But in COVID, we couldn’t interact in person, and so we were forced finally to allow these virtual connections with people like we do in every other part of the economy. Lo and behold, it worked. And what we found interestingly, and there’ve been some really good studies, is all of these actuaries who think they know what will happen in the world don’t actually know what will happen in the world. And what happened was… The prediction always was telemedicine will be additive. They’ll do in-person, and then the doctors will just churn more procedures by telemedicine. That’s not what we found. What we found was it was substitutive that you found low-cost telemedicine interventions in place of personal interventions, and it worked, and it helps deliver quality care. Our community health centers were able to deliver care to low-income, disenfranchised individuals through telemedicine.
But you mentioned the underserved. We learned something else really important very quickly. So initially, because of HIPAA, the privacy laws, and HITECH these restrictions in statute, we required certain platforms only. So, not all apps. I can’t remember which ones were good and which were bad, but like a Zoom, but not a Teams, or a Teams, but not a Zoom. We required video, not just audio, because video was, again, that’s the bureaucrats trying to protect the public Fisk video is better than telephone, less likely to be abused. Well, you know what? You and I have high-speed internet, and you and I have high-speed WiFi, and you and I can do video anywhere we want. Not everyone in America can do that. And we learned that audio-only is a really important aspect of telemedicine and reimbursing and incentivizing that. And that is something, now that we’re out of the public health emergency, all these learnings, frankly, we need to wake up and implement them. And we need to say, “We learn from this. Why, in God’s name aren’t we doing this as the way, the new paradigm?” So that’s what we all have to keep driving forward for kids and for adults.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Dr. Moss.
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
I’m nodding in violent agreement, and it’s been a big step forward, in particular to the care of children and specialty care of children. Many, many children and families live a lot of miles away from where we can provide that care. And we can’t put a pediatric subspecialist in every little town, but we need to serve every kid in every little town with the same quality of care that we do in urban centers.
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
Yeah. And if I could say what Dr. Moss just mentioned is another important part of the underserved is healthcare deserts in America, rural, remote, underserved, and even urban. Telemedicine, using technology, allows people to get quality care regardless of their zip code. Too often in America, the zip code that’s on your envelope is going to dictate the quality of your health outcomes, whether it’s cancer care or pediatric care or maternal mortality, et cetera. We have to leverage access to the highest quality physicians, nurses, and other practitioners in this country, regardless of where you live, and technology can enable us to do that.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
I want to ask about the future. Looking ahead, what concerns you most about healthcare? What excites you? Where do you see healthcare going, especially for children and families? Dr. Moss, I’m going to go to you first.
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
I never get concerned, Carol. I only get excited. So I’ll answer just half of that question. It goes back to what we’ve been talking about on this podcast, which is the tremendous opportunities we unleash when we actually start to pay for health. Imagine what that next generation of kids would look like when they become adults if little, inexpensive interventions can cut diabetes, heart disease, and cancer in half. The amount of economic productivity that would unlock the amount of potential in that society, I mean, it’s absolutely limitless what we could do as a nation if we could get out from under the ballooning massive cost of healthcare and have a GDP, which is skyrocketing because there’s so much productivity that we’re not losing to poor health. That, to me, is tremendously exciting.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Secretary Azar, same question. What excites you? What worries you?
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
What excites me about healthcare is there’s so much opportunity. Essentially, things are often so messed up in how we deliver and pay for healthcare here in the United States in spite of having a great healthcare system. There’s just so many areas for improvement. We can make things so much better. And with technology, and especially with now our greater understanding of the genetic nature of disease and customized therapies, there’s so much potential.
I was actually up at one of your peers when I was secretary up at Boston Children’s. I saw a 19-year-old kid who walked out of the hospital after 30 days of therapy who had sickle cell anemia, had suffered from it his whole life, walked out of that hospital without a sickle in his blood. He had been cured of sickle cell anemia. I mean, that changes the life, that changes the system. So there’s so much potential out there if we learn how to effectively reward and compensate for that in our system, how we pay for it.
What worries me is these systems, this is what? $4 trillion of the American economy, one-third of the US federal budget? That’s a lot of money and a lot of very entrenched interests that are doing quite well in the system as it is. It is asking a lot to get organizations to change and to take a risk on new ways of doing things. So as secretary, my view was always… Actually, leading, I was the president at Eli Lilly here in the United States. So, I’ve led huge organizations with huge transformations. I find as a leader, it’s very important to not think of transforming and changing as a zero-sum game, that somebody has to win and somebody has to lose in the transformation.
If you can add money into the system to change the new way of doing things, so with value-based payment, new muscle memory, new ways of delivering care that don’t put you completely at risk during that transition, so you can learn to walk, then run, become expert, and then be at risk, but still have the tether of the old, managing that bridge is going to make changing and transforming a system that has this much money, this much profit, this many jobs in it, more likely to happen than if we just dictate you will change. This is probably the largest… It would be one of the largest economic transformations in human history if we can actually do this.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Dr. Moss.
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
Very well said. I can’t hear the word sickle cell without making some comments about health equity and its impact on overall health. If we could eliminate health inequity in this country, we’d be… I was going to say halfway there, but we’d be three-quarters of the way there. And sickle cell is a disease that exemplifies better than any other the missed opportunity. Sickle cell is essentially a curable disease. We essentially could have eliminated that disease. And the reasons that we haven’t have anything to do with science and technology. They’re all about equity and fair treatment.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Anything else I haven’t asked either of you that you’d like to share?
Alex Azar, 24th U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services:
No. While I’m guardedly concerned about the entrenched interests, I’m very optimistic, especially being here at HLTH. And you just see there’s so much innovation. No matter what we as government regulators impose, shackle, burden healthcare with, whatever history burdens us, with the ingenuity of the competitive marketplace to innovate to come up with new surpasses that. And no matter how we try to keep it down, the human spirit, through competition, ingenuity, innovation, it’s there. And you can just feel its lifeblood at a conference like this. And that gives me hope in spite of all the ways we try to keep change from happening.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Dr. Moss.
Dr. Larry Moss, President and CEO, Nemours Children’s Health:
Carol, very grateful to be here, grateful for the opportunity. I appreciate that Secretary Azar has set HHS on an innovative and thoughtful trajectory that continues beyond his administration. I will close with three things: understand what health is, pay for health, start with children.
Carol Vassar, Host/Producer:
Dr. Larry Moss, Secretary Alex Azar, thank you for being on the Nemours Well Beyond Medicine Podcast.
Music:
Well Beyond Medicine
Thanks for listening to the Well Beyond Medicine Podcast with me, Carol Vassar and our guests, Nemours President and CEO, Dr. Larry Moss, and former Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar.
It’s a simple plan. Understand what health is, pay for health, start with children. What do you believe needs to happen to move that plan forward? Let us know by visiting wellbeyondmedicine.org and leaving a voicemail. You may hear your ideas shared on an upcoming podcast episode. Wellbeyondmedicine.org is also where you’ll find all of our previous podcast episodes. When you visit, please be sure to leave a review and subscribe to the podcast, too.
Thanks to our production team for this episode: Cheryl Munn, Che Parker, Susan Masucci, and our on-site engineer, Adonis Vera from Clarity Productions. Join us next time as we talk with best-selling author Dr. Geeta Nayyar about diagnosing and treating healthcare’s misinformation epidemic. Until then, remember, we can change children’s health for good – well beyond medicine.
