What children eat today is heavily influenced by powerful forces — from ultra-processed “kids’ foods” to marketing strategies designed to keep them hooked. World-renowned nutrition expert Dr. Marion Nestle explains how we got here, why parents are facing an uphill battle and what real solutions look like.
We discuss school meals, the “pester factor,” the connection between food insecurity and obesity, and how other countries are taking a different approach. Dr. Nestle also offers practical, hopeful steps parents, grandparents and caregivers can take to help children develop a healthier relationship with food.
Featuring: Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health, Emerita, New York University
Host/Producer: Carol Vassar
Announcer:
Welcome to Well Beyond Medicine, the world’s top-ranked children’s health podcast produced by Nemours Children’s Health. Subscribe on any platform at nemourswellbeyond.org or find us on YouTube.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Each week, we’ll be joined by innovators and experts from around the world, exploring anything and everything related to the 85% of child health impacts that occur outside the doctor’s office.
I’m your host, Carol Vassar. And now that you are here, let’s go.
Music:
Let’s go well beyond medicine.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, nearly 20% of American children and teens between the ages of 2 and 19 are affected by obesity. That’s 14.7 million kids nationwide. At the same time, millions of children are living with food insecurity, not sure where their next healthy meal is coming from. These are dual public health challenges that do not exist in a vacuum. They’re shaped by a complex mix of marketing, access, affordability, and food policy.
Today, we’re joined by someone who’s been watching, researching, reading, and writing about food politics for decades. Dr. Marion Nestle is the Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health, Emerita at New York University. She’s a leading voice on food and nutrition and the politics thereof, and has dedicated her career to exploring how food systems, industry practices, and policy shape our diets. She’s also the author of 16 books, including the 2006 Bestseller, What To Eat, and its update, What To Eat Now, released earlier this month.
So when Dr. Marion Nestle considers the current landscape of children’s nutrition in the US, what stands out most? That’s where we started our conversation. Here’s Dr. Marion Nestle.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, it looks to me as if children are in charge of deciding what they eat and that the food industry has done a fantastic job of getting kids to believe that. Kids don’t eat meals anymore; they snack all day long. I worry a lot about it. I see lots of efforts to try to change the situation, but school food is really important, and in schools that have changed the situation, kids have a very different relationship to food and a much better one.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
A better one, you say, talk about that a little bit.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, in schools that have gardens where they’re teaching kids how to cook, kids have a completely different relationship with food. They like real food, they understand the tastes and the complexity of tastes, and textures, and colors that come with real food. They’re willing to try foods they’ve never tried before, and they’re not stuck eating at McDonald’s every day.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Well, let’s talk about fast foods, ultra-processed foods; they seem to dominate many children’s diets. How did we get to the point where ultra-processed foods, fast foods were really front and center for children?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, they’re kids’ foods. They’re products that are designed for kids. They signal in their packaging that they’re for kids. They’ve got cartoons on them, they’re in bright colors, they’ve got games on the back, and they teach kids that this is what food is supposed to be and that kids know more about what they’re supposed to eat than their parents do, and they undermine parental authority, and I think in a way that’s not healthy for anybody.
I would say the quintessential kids’ product, and I totally understand what it’s like for parents these days. I don’t have young children, but I remember having young children, fortunately in a much simpler era, and I recognize how much more complicated this era has gotten. But whenever I see a parent giving a kid a pouch, I just cringe because that child is not learning about food, not learning about how to eat, is being given something in semi-liquid form that’s usually sweetened in some way or other, learns very quickly that food should be easy to swallow, sweet and in a package, and I think that’s really unfortunate. But I totally understand why parents use them.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Parents are busy.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
I totally understand why parents use them because it’s really hard to raise kids these days.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
It is. It always has been. But let me ask, how long has this been happening? Because I remember when my kids, and my kids are grown adults with their own children now, we’re young. Lunchables were the big thing. It was probably the worst thing I could buy for them, but they were convenient for us. Have things become more complicated for-
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Oh, yeah. Much more.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Talk about that.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Much more. I raised my kids before Lunchables. The only food I fought with my kids about was Lucky Charms or breakfast cereals that had games or toys or whatever that they really wanted. And I could see that the cereal companies were attracting kids to buy these products and want these products. I thought they were pretty awful, but I was that kind of mother. So, I took my kids to McDonald’s on their birthdays. That’s really different from taking your kids to McDonald’s every day. It’s very different.
And there are now so many products that are aimed at kids. There are whole sections of supermarkets that are labeled for kids’ foods and it’s where the sweet drinks are, where the pouches are, where these products that are designed for kids are placed and kids shouldn’t be having the foods aimed at them, they should be eating the same foods the parents are eating if their parents are eating healthily, which is another thing.
I just think life has gotten so hard for parents. They’re working multiple jobs. They don’t have a lot of money, and they want to treat their kids; they want to give their kids something that their kid will eat. Getting a child to eat a food that the child doesn’t particularly want to eat is a long, drawn-out, weeks-long process and requires an enormous amount of parental effort. You have to keep giving the child the same food over and over and over again, handling rejection in a way that doesn’t get anybody upset, and just keep doing it. I mean, I’m greatly in favor of baby-led weaning, which is where you put out foods for the kid, you let the kid pick the foods up with fingers and shove it in their mouths and all over their faces and clothes and whatever. Those kids learn how to eat real food.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Are those kids common today? Are parents doing that, or is that not something…
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Some parents are, and good for them. Good for them. I think more should. It’s amazing to go to lunch with a year-old child who has been raised on baby-led weaning because you’re having a conversation with the parents, and they just take some food off their plate, put it on the tray, chop it up into little pieces, and continue the conversation, and the kid explores and makes a mess. It’s really fun to watch. It’s not your kid.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
It’s not your kid; you don’t have to clean them up later.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
You don’t have to clean it up. It’s really fun to watch.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
That’s the grandparents’ privilege right there.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Yeah, I mean, I’m enormously in favor of that. And you watch these kids trying all kinds of foods. I remember going to dinner with a couple who had a baby-led weaning kid, and we were at a restaurant that had very spicy food with hot sauces, and they put it all out, ate, and the baby reached for it, put the hot sauce in the mouth, looked absolutely shocked. A waiter came running over, terrified, absolutely terrified. And the baby went right back for it.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Oh, good.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
So yeah, kids will feed themselves really well. They’re interested in food.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
But there’s so much more that influences what they’re eating. And then, as we talked about, not everybody is doing baby-fed weaning. And when you look at what kids are eating today, how they’re eating today, how they’re learning, and all the forces that shape those choices, there’s marketing, there’s school meals, there’s public policy.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Let’s go back to the pouches.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Which is the easy thing to do. But in your mind, in your experience, what needs attention right now? What needs action right now so that we can get kids on a better path to nutrition earlier?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
I would start with school food because it’s institutional, and it’s a place where real change can take place. Parents are going to raise their kids in whatever way they can. Everybody tries to do the best they can. Some people can do it better than others.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
True.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
I have enormous sympathy for parents these days, I really do. I think it’s very hard. And we won’t even talk about phones, but-
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
We might.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
… that’s changed everything, but in school, you can teach kids what food is. You can teach kids how to taste food. You can get the kids to taste food if you deal with them on a very human one-on-one level. I’ve seen it done over and over and over again. And you can set standards for what food should taste like, what meals are like. You can teach about sharing. You can teach about taste and flavor. You could do all kinds of things if there are people in the school who want to do that, even with Department of Agriculture-funded meals; you could do that if you have people in the school who care about that sort of thing. And when you’re in a school that’s doing it, it’s a lovely thing to behold. It’s just beautiful. Brings tears to my eyes.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
If you’re fortunate enough to be at a school that’s doing that. So that is one way, that’s one approach. But you’re also competing against the phones, the TV, the social media that kids are experiencing. Talk a little bit about how marketing has shaped, does shape what children eat, and how much of that is intentional?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, companies market to kids.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Go for it. Tell me more.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Companies market to kids. It’s an enormous issue. When Michelle Obama was in the White House, she made several eloquent speeches to food manufacturers about the way they were marketing junk foods to kids and told them to stop, but she had no power to stop them, and they didn’t. And in fact, I went to a meeting on food marketing at the White House during that era, and the attendees broke up into smaller groups after the speeches, and there was a food industry executive in my group who said, “We would love to stop marketing to children. We know it’s wrong, but our stockholders won’t let us.” It was the boldest statement I had ever heard and the most frank statement I had ever heard about what the food marketing to kids issue is about. These are among the most profitable products in the supermarket, not willing to stop marketing.
If they can get a child hooked on a particular food product, that child will want that product for life. You still see adults eating kids’ cereals because they remember them with such fondness and such nostalgia. So that’s a goal of food companies because the purpose of food companies, as I’m very fond of saying, is not social service and it’s not public health, it’s profits to stockholders. That’s their primary purpose, it’s what they’re about, and once you understand and accept that you understand what they’re doing, it all makes sense.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Can we take any cues from the tobacco industry, which was forced to-
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Of course, we can.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Thank you. Talk a little bit about that.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, at one point, tobacco, for a few years, tobacco companies owned food companies, and they taught the food companies how to market unhealthy products to people and use what’s called the tobacco industry playbook, which is, you blame personal responsibility, everything is about personal choice, not the institution or the system that you’re in. You influence the research. You cast doubt on any unfavorable research and fund research that’ll give you the kind of results that you want. You have experts who will say what you want them to say; you find them and pay them. You do all of those things.
And the food companies aren’t very good at that; they are required to produce not only profits, but growth in profits every 90 days. That’s what our investment system expects. You cannot expect all food companies to grow their sales and profits because we have twice the amount of food in the American food supply as anybody needs, that makes the food supply really competitive. The 4,000 calories a day available for every man, woman, and little tiny baby in the country, most people need half that. So that builds into the system, enormous competition for sales, and it also builds a lot of waste into the system, but that’s the system we’re dealing with.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
It’s also a system; if there are 4,000 calories per person available each day, that’s going to lead to obesity.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Oh, yeah.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Talk about obesity in children and the connection between food policy and obesity in children.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, obesity is about eating more calories than you expend in basal metabolism and physical activity, with basal metabolism, by far, the majority of the calories that people use up every day. So you can try to be more active, but it really doesn’t do nearly as much as you wish it would. Everybody should be more active. I’m in favor of physical activity, but it’s not a big help with being overweight.
So the marketing that’s aimed at kids is aimed at selling them soft drinks, cereals, candy, various kinds of packaged cakes. It’s designed for several purposes. The first is to get the kids that don’t have money of their own, is to get them to nag their parents to buy the products. That has a name in the industry, it’s called the pester factor. You’re supposed to; the purpose of the marketing is to get kids to pester their parents to buy the products. You want to induce brand loyalty, and you want to get the kids to continually want that product throughout life, and they’re really good at it. They hire lots of really, really smart people to design the advertising and to work with them to advertise to kids, so kids will pester their parents.
And then the last thing, and the one that bothers me the most is they want to convince kids that they know more about what they’re supposed to eat than their parents do. Kids are supposed to eat kids’ food. They’re not supposed to eat the boring food that their parents are eating. So that undermines parental authority, and I think it’s wrong, I really do. I think there are ethical issues in there that are… There’s a transgression of ethical boundaries there. It’s not good for kids’ health. It’s not good for parental… I don’t know any parent who wants to argue with their kids about food. It just seems so low on the priority list of things you have to argue with your kids about, and it’s an easy way to give them treats, it’s an easy way to make them happy. I don’t blame parents at all for not resisting this more because it’s hard to d,o and the marketing is designed to make it deliberately hard to do.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Do you see any connection between…we see a lot of food insecurity in children and adults, and obesity. They’re often side by side, and the ultra-processed foods seem to be cheaper. Talk about the connection between childhood food insecurity and obesity. What is the connection, if there’s a connection?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, ultra-processed food is cheaper.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
It is.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
When people without a lot of money complain about the high prices of fruits and vegetables, they’re absolutely right. The cost of everything has increased, and food prices have doubled just in the last five years, maybe in the last five minutes. I’m kind of shocked by what’s going on in the grocery store. And I can afford it, and I’m shocked. If you don’t have a lot of money, fruits and vegetables are expensive. Their price has gone up much, much faster than the price of ultra-processed foods, where the companies can buy the ingredients when they’re cheap and leave things on the shelf for a long time. Fruits and vegetables are perishable. They cost a lot, and you waste a lot of alone because if you don’t use them right away, they spoil.
And there are lots of reasons for buying ultra-processed foods if you don’t have a lot of money. There’s some very good books on this. In particular, interviews of low-income parents about what they feed their kids demonstrate that the parents can’t afford to buy their kids the bicycles or the sneakers or the expensive toys that they want, but they can afford to buy them breakfast cereals or sodas or some food product that they want and they want to make their kids happy.
I think this is completely understandable. And to ask somebody without money to fight with their kids about food on top of everything else seems to me to be asking a great deal. I mean, the reality of people’s lives have to be taken into consideration. And food companies know this, and they are deliberately undermining any attempt for parents to feed their kids healthfully because they’re trying to sell their product. They’re trying to make the kids fat. They’re trying to sell their product. That’s collateral damage, and they blame it on you, “We’re not forcing you to eat our products.”
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Are there any models, we’ve laid out the problem in great detail here. What are some models that you think show promise as we get kids to eat healthier foods, healthier food environments for kids?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Go to a supermarket in Mexico City and walk through the aisles; they have warning labels on products that are high in sugar, salt, saturated fat, and calories for their weight. Half the products in the supermarket have great big black warning labels on them that kids can recognize immediately, that even people who can’t read can understand and know how to avoid. You teach kids about this, and the kids will say, “Don’t buy that. It’s got two warning labels on it.”
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Would that be something you think could happen in the US or… Don’t laugh? Yes, laugh.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
I’m sorry. I’m sorry.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Go ahead.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
The Biden-era FDA proposed a warning label. It didn’t get approved, and it didn’t get finalized. I thought it was kind of weak anyway; it wasn’t nearly as good as the ones in Latin America. There are quite a number of countries in Latin America that are now doing warning labels and taxes on sodas and other kinds of things that we’re not doing. But we’ll see what the… The FDA hasn’t announced its policies yet. I’m looking forward to seeing what they’re planning to do.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
What about Europe? I thought I saw a picture of you in Iceland with a, I think it was it Lucky Charms or Froot Loops?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Oh, I was actually in Oxford.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Okay.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
I was in Oxford. No, it was Froot Loops without artificial colors. Robert F Kennedy Jr. has made it his first priority to get the artificial food dyes out of food, and I badly wanted to see what American cereals in Europe look like if they did not have artificial dyes. Would you like me to get the box and show it to you?
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Yes.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
I can do that.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
As I recall, it’s a little more dull in color than what we see here on our shelves. Yeah, it’s definitely not what I’m familiar with when it comes to Froot Loops.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Definitely not what you expect Froot Loops to look like. I was very excited to find this. The colors are from carrots, black currants, and other such things.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
So you’re in favor of this, it sounds like artificial dyes… Okay.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Oh yeah, yeah. But when American food companies tried to do this some years ago, and General Mills tried to do this with Trix cereal, nobody bought Trix cereal. So what Kennedy is trying to do is to get all of the major food companies to volunteer to take the artificial dyes out of their food. And if it’s across the board, then maybe it’ll be okay, and there aren’t issues. But it’s all voluntary, and it’s not going to happen until 2027, so don’t hold your breath.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
There’s some hope for my coming grandchildren. Cross my fingers.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Right.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Speaking of that, as we start to close out here today, what are some things parents, caregivers, grandparents can do to help the children in their lives eat just a little bit better?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Teach them how to cook.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Oh, okay.
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Absolutely. Teach them how to cook. Start with ingredients, start with cookies, as far as I’m concerned, that’s as good a way as any, but teach kids how to cook. Then you can take ingredients from the grocery store and put them together into something delicious. Cooking is easy. It’s fun. It’s not hard to do. Kids love it, and they’ll get interested. And teach them how to grow, teach them how to grow radishes in pots on the windowsill. When kids grow food, they have a real attachment to it. They’re willing to taste it. They’re willing to be much more adventurous than they would be if they didn’t have those experiences. That’s why I think school food is so important. Many schools have gardens now. You go into these schools, the kids are eating the food. They really are, liking it, and asking for seconds and saying, “Can I learn to do this? Can I work in the kitchen? Can I learn how to do what you’re doing?” And the answer should be yes, if it’s at all possible.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Absolutely. What gives you hope right now in this moment when it comes to reshaping the food system for our kids?
Marion Nestle, PhD, MPH, New York University:
Well, the enormous numbers of people who are interested in doing that. I may not agree with everything that the… I don’t agree with the priorities of the MAHA Movement, the Make America Healthy Again movement. I think they should have somewhat different priorities, but I think it’s fantastic that so many people are interested in trying to prevent health problems. That’s really exciting. And I cheer them on for that, and I just hope they do it right. Well, I hope they do something that’ll make a real difference.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Dr. Marion Nestle is the Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health Emerita at New York University.
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Well beyond medicine.
Carol Vassar, podcast host/producer:
Thanks to Dr. Nestle for joining us, and thank you for listening. Leading Voices on Children’s Health, that’s what you’ve come to expect, and that’s what you get when you listen to the Nemours Well Beyond Medicine Podcast. All of our episodes are available anywhere you find your podcasts, on the Nemours YouTube channel, and on our website, nemourswellbeyond.org. Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to our monthly e-newsletter, and leave your thoughts about future podcast episodes via voicemail at nemourswellbeyond.org or by emailing [email protected]. Our production team today includes Lauren Teta, Alex Wall, Susan Masucci, and Cheryl Munn. Video production by Britt Moore. Audio production by yours truly. Next time we’ll be examining successful models of mental health care that brings services to adolescents at both home and school. Please join us. I’m Carol Vassar. Until then, remember, we can change children’s health for good, well beyond medicine.
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